Franchise QB

Episode 60: Ilona Kirzhner, Multi-Unit Franchise Owner and Area Rep- Hammer & Nails Men's Grooming

• Mike Halpern • Season 1 • Episode 60

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In this episode of the Franchise QB Podcast, host Mike Halpern speaks with Ilona Kirzhner, a multi-unit franchise owner and area representative at Hammer & Nails Grooming for Guys. 

They discuss Ilona's impressive background, her journey into the men's grooming industry, and the unique concept of Hammer & Nails, which combines high-end grooming services with a contemporary environment. 

Ilona shares insights into her role as an area representative, the growing men's grooming market, and the key differentiators that set Hammer & Nails apart from competitors. The conversation also covers the revenue streams available to franchise owners, the importance of a supportive team, and the ideal retail footprint for the business. 

Additionally, they delve into the opening process, marketing support, and the qualities that make a successful franchise owner. The episode concludes with a discussion on financial performance, profitability, and the potential exit strategies for franchise owners.

Takeaways

-Ilona Kirzhner has a strong educational background in engineering and business.
-She transitioned from a successful consulting career to the men's grooming industry.
-Hammer & Nails offers a unique combination of grooming services in a high-end environment.
-The men's grooming industry is a growing market worth around $30 billion.
-Membership-based models help maintain customer loyalty and regular visits.
-Franchise owners can benefit from multiple revenue streams, including services and products.
-Ilona operates three Hammer & Nails locations and has sold licenses to sub-franchisees.
-A supportive team is crucial for the success of franchise operations.
-The ideal retail space for Hammer & Nails is around 2000 square feet.
-Marketing expenses are essential for driving business growth and customer acquisition.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction
01:13 Ilona Kirzhner's Journey to Hammer & Nails
06:49 Understanding the Hammer & Nails Concept
09:09 Role of an Area Representative in Franchising
11:26 The Growing Men's Grooming Industry
13:43 Key Differentiators of Hammer & Nails
14:36 Revenue Streams for Franchise Owners
16:32 Franchise Ownership and Expansion
18:52 Building a Supportive Team
20:45 Ideal Retail Footprint for Hammer & Nails
21:42 Opening Process and Support for Franchisees
25:28 Turnkey Opening Package and Marketing Support
31:01 Qualities of a Successful Franchise Owner
33:56 Staffing Model for Hammer & Nails
35:49 Financial Performance and Profitability
41:05 Conclusion

https://hammerandnailsfranchise.com/


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Mike Halpern, CAFC
mike@franchiseqb.com

This is the Franchise QB Podcast, where we empower entrepreneurs to win big in franchising. We huddle up weekly to educate our audience about the most successful small business model ever created. Franchise it! Welcome to the Franchise QB podcast. I'm your host, Mike Halpern, a 20 year industry veteran and entrepreneur. My mission is for listeners to achieve their American dreams of creating wealth and independence through franchise ownership. Every week we speak with franchisees, franchisors or vendors that support the industry. Thank you for joining us and let's get started. Joining us in the huddle today is Ilona Kirzhner, area representative and franchise owner at Hammer & Nails Grooming for Guys. Welcome to the show, Ilona. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. So excited you asked me on. It is great to have you. So you have a very impressive educational background that I want to get into real quick before we talk about Hammer & Nails. Electrical engineering degree from Ohio State. Go Buckeyes!!! a Masters of Science in Engineering from Harvard. I hope that gets the same kind of excitement. And an MBA from William & Mary here in Virginia, which is really impressive credentials. I find this really interesting. You co-built a business from scratch to 100 employees and $20 million in revenue before you exited 20 years ago back in 2004. Not easy to do. And for the past 20 years, you've been self-employed. So you've had various government contracts, including the US Army, Department of Veterans Affairs, US Air Force, and Department of Defense, to name a few. So tell us a little bit about your journey in business and what eventually led you to the men's grooming business. Yeah, that's an excellent question. And you certainly summarized my background really well. I started as a flyer quality engineer out of college and happened to have caught the front end of what is known as the Lean Six Sigma management consulting space. I became a, you know, black belt and master black belt, not in karate, but in process improvement and had a very nice runway of a career. flying all over the world training master black belts and black belts for manufacturing companies, financial services companies, insurance companies, whoever really wanted to really upgrade their level of professionals. After I did that for many, years in 2004, my oldest son was born. and just kind of had to slow down a bit. Cut a little bit of that travel out. Yes, exactly. Cut some of the travel out. It was a good time to exit the business that we had built, the management consulting business that we built. And in the Lean Six Sigma mantra, I had three kids in four years. Very lean in my... approach to baby making, I guess. I'm excited to say I've got two in college and a junior in high school here. So I'm ready to get them off the payroll soon, I hope. Long story short, I after COVID hit in the early part of 2020, one of my contracts kind of stalled as well. And I just took a three month hiatus for the first time in 25 years and just overdosed on Netflix and, you know, just relaxed a bit. your career a sabbatical. Yes, took a little sabbatical. I like the way you said that. And during that interim period, I was recruited from an organization that called themselves Career Coaches. and I was presented eight concepts, one of which was Hammer & Nails. And I took Hammer Nails off the list. I don't know anything about men's grooming. And because of where Hammer Nails was in its life cycle as a company, as a brand, and because of my background, my coach really felt I would be an asset to the business. And he put it back on the list. I did due diligence. I had never ever considered retail or franchising or grooming. Nothing in that space. You know, and he really said some cliche things that kind of, you know, got me to listen. And so, you know, I jumped off a cliff. It's unfortunate or fortunate, depending on which side of the coin you're on. I have a very, very, very high risk tolerance and off the charts at times. I my risk tolerance was, you know, in full bloom. And I went all in with Hammer & Nails in December, or sorry, August, July, July 17th, 2020 in the middle of the pandemic. I bought 12 licenses as a franchisee. Did not own a territory at that time. And really had no concept what I was in for. And my first shop opened December 31st 2020 so less than six months after I signed. Yeah, this is good time Yeah, no, I and I want to get into your role because you have a really interesting role As an area representative with Hammer & Nails, but before we do that for anyone listening, that's not familiar. What is Hammer & Nails? Yes, so Hammer & Nails is really an amazing concept in men's grooming. Maybe a combination of a really high end spa with a barber shop meets together. We offer haircuts, straight razor shaves, beard grooming, facial waxing for men, little mini facials for guys. And in a really dope man cave environment, we do man, a cures and pedicures. So it's just a really nice one-stop shop contemporary vibe of a men's grooming establishment. We have adult beverages, so you can kind of come after work, take the edge off, get a little bit more of a community field going. We have this thing called hammer time where guys can come together to groom. You know, it's just a really nice way to get the job done. It's also one stop shop, sorry to interrupt you. So it's also one stop shop in that you don't have to go one place for your cotton beard and another place for your manicure pedicure and a third place for your facial waxing cleanup. You know, it's just kind of all one shop stop. Yeah, no, and you were kind enough to invite me to visit the location in Reston, which is 20 minutes from where I live and I was really impressed. mean, you can, not only the type of real estate you pick, but the storefront, the attention to detail on co-tenancy, the materials that were used inside, the vibe inside the place, like really high end, which you can, it definitely conveys when you step in there for the first time. and before we kind of get into more details on the business, I want to talk a little bit. about your role. So you are an area representative. You mentioned before that you have 12 licenses. You're an intermediary between the franchise or the parent company and a franchisee that would operate within the territory that you secured, which carries with it additional responsibilities beyond operating your shop. So for someone that's listening, that's new to franchising, what do you do as an area rep? Sure, definitely want to provide some insight there. Let me just for the viewers explain. When I bought 12 licenses, I was wearing the hat of a franchisee. And after that, I bought into the brand as an area representative, which was completely separate from my 12 licenses. The area representative's job is to not just represent the brand, but generate leads for individuals to become franchisees. We also have the very, very important role to mentor them all the way through the discovery process, signing, evaluating site selection, negotiating leases, building out the site. you know, really mentoring them, training them, coaching them all the way through to opening day. And then once they're open to really making sure that we are optimizing this incredible asset that they've just invested in and maximizing the return on investment, getting to break even as quickly as we can, making sure that we are deploying the right strategies to maximize profits for that particular business. Yeah, no, I love the concept because you have the support local with people that know the market. Every market's different and the fact that you live here, you're familiar with the area, you've been here a long time. I think that that is really helpful for new owners coming in trying to figure out a lay of the land with real estate. how to hire the right people, et cetera. So that's a really neat thing. Thanks for explaining that to us. So taking a step back, how big is the men's grooming industry at large? That's a great question. I haven't checked recently, but I would say within the last six to nine months, last time I checked, we were sporting a nice $30 billion kind of marketplace. The one thing I really love about this concept is that we were, we are in a growing market. My 18 year old son bought his best friend a big daddy hammer nails manicure pedicure combo for his 18th birthday. know, so younger and younger folks and you know, Mike, you're, the quintessential, you know, I don't know, 40 plus I'll say. appreciate that. Yeah. white guy you probably have had one or two pedicures in your life. I'm not afraid to admit it. I love them. Yes, exactly. And you've neglected most guys have neglected their feet, you know, and so it's just I'm a tennis player. have ugly feet notoriously. And this is very helpful for me. Yeah. It's a safe place to a lot of men have foot ailments. And, know, we help with that teamed with, you know, a podiatrist or you know, some medical attention. We can help those, you know, those very important body parts of ours get back on track. So we like to say we're a safe place for men's grooming. Yeah. And you gave me a great idea because I also have an 18 year old son and I think this would be a great place to send them because he is always complaining that there's not a great place to get a good haircut around here. So I think that would be a good entry point into your concept. So, you know, when I walked in there, I mentioned earlier that it was a really impressive first impression. What are some of the key differentiators in your view for your business, Hammer & Nails? Sure. So one you actually kind of hinted at, maybe you didn't know, we are a membership based model. And that is very, very powerful because it allows men to stay regular and regimented in their men's grooming work. Additionally, our roots came, our leadership came from Massage Envy. And in our membership model, they took every possible restriction that Massage Envy had on their membership and did away with it. So you can share the membership, like you said, you and your son, you guys can share a membership. My three boys, all very different hairstyles share a membership. You can also, the credits roll over so you don't lose them. They don't expire if you're an active member. Anyone can use your credits, not just family. Very member friendly rules. Yes, exactly. And of course, the most important one is you get either 20 or 40 % off our retail rates as a member. That's awesome. Yeah. Very cool. So I'm imagining like that's a really attractive feature of any franchise model is having that recurring revenue. So it's more predictable. What other revenue streams does a franchise owner enjoy at Hammer & Nails aside from the subscription revenue? Yep. So we have four different revenue streams in my Virginia shops and there is a fifth in some locations outside of Virginia. So of course the membership, the recurring revenue, any services bought that are from walk-in business or non-member business or bought out above the membership. Those two revenue streams are all service based, one-on-one services that you're buying. We also have gift cards, which Mike, for your son for the holidays, you might consider we have a gift card promotion going on right now. I'm sold. Yes, absolutely. Love that. I can hook you up after our podcast. the last piece of revenue that I think is the, the biggest growth opportunity for this brand is product. So, you know, how many locations do you personally own and operate in the greater DC, Maryland, Virginia area? And how many of those are kind of sub-franchised to other owners that are going to be operating within your territory? Sure. So I own and operate three Hammer & Nails men's grooming shops. They are in my oldest shop in Leesburg, Virginia. that four years old as of this recording. I have a three year old shop. my gosh, tomorrow it will have its third birthday in Gainesville. Happy birthday. Thank you. And Reston is my newest shop, the shop that you visited. about just over two years old. Although I bought 12 licenses, I feel like I don't want to open any more shops right now. And so I have resold five of my 12 licenses to what you term sub-franchisees. We've got three different groups with five licenses sold to those three individuals or couples. cool. Yeah. And how does that compare to where Hammer & Nails is kind of nationwide, system-wide? How many locations does the company operate overall? Sure. So I think we're either 38 or 39 open right now nationally. The brand started in California. So definitely a lot of locations in California. We've had a private equity company buy out Texas. So they are on target to kind of open 30, 40, 50 shops in Texas. My counterpart in the Northeast. Has sold 26 licenses with five shops opened in the Connecticut, New Jersey, New York area Florida is blowing up with anything five or six shops open and You know spread Reno, Nevada and just a kind of us that splatterings Smattering smattering. Okay across the rest of the US awesome So tell me a little bit about the team that you've assembled to kind of not only operate your shops, but also support the owners that are sub-franchise owners that are coming in to kind of partner with you and develop other locations. I did have the privilege of meeting Anup who handles franchise development. He's the one that introduced me to you. Anyone else on your team that kind of would help an owner from when they sign on the dotted line until they launch their business and beyond? Absolutely. the again, positive or negative with running three shops is I actually currently have 70 employees across those three shops. We're quite the enterprise. You know, I have a tag on my doors that says small women owned business and we're not small anymore, which is kind of exciting when you think about a retail enterprise kind of, you know, grassroots started by myself to now have 70 people part-time and full-time working for me. I love it, that's awesome. Congratulations on your growth. Yeah, think about it, I'm pretty proud of what I've done. You know, at any given moment, I'm probably pulling my hair out, but you know, I do sometimes have the opportunity to reflect and I'm super excited by the contributions I've made to these individuals' lives. So several of those individuals have been with me from the beginning. And they also are on my team once we get a little bit closer to opening shops. They will be our trainers, they will be our facilitators, whether we bring people on site to train shadow them or I send my folks to their location. They will be an integral part in making sure that we get those shops open. That's my lead mail tech, my lead master barber and kind of my lead general manager. have a regional now that runs all three shops for me. And between her and my local shop managers, we will be basically training the franchisee and their staff in how to operate a shop. Very cool. So tell me a little bit, I know there's probably flexibility in your retail footprint, but what size space generally works best for the Hammer & Nails concept? Sure. We like to target about 2000 square feet plus or minus maybe a couple hundred square feet. My number one revenue generating shop in the nation right now, Leesburg, my oldest shop, is an 1,840 square foot footprint. And then my largest shop, which is Reston, currently number four in the nation in revenue, operates in a 2340 square foot footprint. And then Gainesville, which is number three in revenue in the nation, operates at about 21, 2,200 square feet. So in that range, I've got the small side, I've got the large side. You know, and even your big ones under 2500 feet. I that's a pretty lean footprint. So how long does it take to open? I know it's a loaded question because there's a lot of variables that sometimes the owners don't control in terms of permits, construction and things like that. But are we looking at like, you you find the site, you negotiate the lease. Are we looking at like three to four months after that? Yeah, so, you know, becoming a franchisee is usually You know, two to three month process. could certainly get it done in 30 days, depending on your appetite for moving fast. And then we have, just like you said, finding a location, negotiating a letter of intent, and then negotiating the lease. I try to give folks a little speed accelerator. I try to give folks a little boost by trying to negotiate some LOIs ahead of time with a non-specific signatory. And then I leave the lease for the FZs, the franchisees to negotiate based on their financials, et cetera. Do you mean that prior to securing the franchisee while they're still deciding, you might say, I have a conversation going with a landlord and they like our concept, they like our model, they have really good space that kind of fits our parameters and you just need to plug in the owner. Exactly. Sometimes I'll start that once we first start talking to an owner or a potential owner. We did that with Annapolis. Other times I'll start it because I just love the area or the center and I know we want to be there. And if I can't find a franchisee, maybe I'll do a fourth. So that's kind of like how we approach it. So tell me a little bit about, know, someone signs on the dotted line, this is their brand, they want to work with you as a sub-franchise owner, or even as an owner with corporate. Tell us a little bit about the turnkey opening package and support, because that's a big deal. You have to come out of the gates, have some members, and have a pretty competitive marketing program that's going to recruit new, new guests, new members. How does that all work? Yes. Great question. I did, I do feel like I didn't finish answering your, your prior question. I would say it's probably a good nine month process. when you're including the timeframe for someone to like really vet the business, go through the process of becoming, you know, the franchise owner on paper. And then going through, you know, the site selection, site acquisition, construction, about nine months door to door is pretty safe. Exactly. And sometimes you have a false start or another concept comes in or that they like better or something like that. So we try to throw a couple of, know, have like a spare location in the works. Retail space has been a little bit challenging to come by these days. So if we find the right space in the right center, we try to hurry that process along in the current time. Yeah, makes sense. You guys are going after A locations. They're very visible with a lot of put traffic, et cetera. So you kind of have to act if one of those good ones kind of hits the market. And I like what you said earlier, co-tenancy, the Apple Store, a Wegmans. You high-end restaurants Firebirds, know, just things that are mainstays Yet, you know household like everyday goods kinds kinds of things in upscale retail centers is yeah, I mean those are your clients so they're gonna be doing those things and notice you and Become kind of valued guests at your place. I get that so switching gears into the kind of the opening and support what what's kind of the, because that's a kind of an inflection point for an owner where they're really nervous and they're like, all right, we just kind of spent all this money. We're building this thing out. You know, we hope it goes. So how do you help in that regard? Yes, that's a great question. And, you know, there's so much we do. I actually itemized it since I knew you were going to ask me this one in particular. So I'll just try to kind of review my, my little bullets here. But I mentioned the pre-negotiated letter of intent for space. We also have a designated tenant representative that mentors you through the lease negotiations. And should that particular space fall through, we've got some backup plans that are in his spreadsheet for us. Also, if you don't have one, I have an incredible franchise attorney that can help you through. not just the franchise agreement, but his partner can help you through the lease negotiations. You definitely want to have some legal representation in those cases. We also have a total package operations team that helps design the space. This is from corporate, deliver pre-permitting MEPs, mechanical, electrical, and plumbing documents to your architect. We also have some architects that if you don't have one that you like to work with, we've got kind of a list that have are very familiar with our brand, GCs that have built out my shops as well. And you you're certainly welcome to find or bring your own if that's to your liking. Really nice. piece about the franchise world. know, I oftentimes I'm like, do I want to give 8 % to corporate? That sounds like a lot, right? You kind of have, you know, some uncomfortableness with that. And let me tell you, there's so much I don't have to figure out. so much. I don't even think twice about that 8%. because a lot of times working with anybody exploring franchising versus an independent business. there's always that hesitation like, what's the value proposition? What am I really getting for my investment? And, you know, I tell them, look, if you expect to do a million dollars in sales and you're paying 8%, that's 80 grand a year. Are you getting that caliber output from the franchisor? Ask other owners. And if the answer is it's a bargain and a discount, you probably picked a good franchise. If people say, man, I feel like I'm paying way too much, then... there's probably not enough service to support. So, you you just have to look at it at face value and see if it's worth the investment. Absolutely. So when you asked me about the turnkey that our turnkey model, a lot of the stuff comes from corporate standardized, furniture, fixtures, and equipment package with a vendor that, that is, you know, dedicated to our brand. have, a standardized chart of accounts with certified accountants that you can use. You can certainly use your own, but these guys understand how our books should look like, can help you, you know, design that in from the get go. We have pre-negotiated rates with payroll vendors, HR vendors, that sort of thing. We have full recruitment support, job descriptions, know, ready-made Instagram ads for all of that. really easy to kind of pick that up and put it into good use. The thing that I love the most, I don't have to mess with the point of sale system. I don't have to mess with the website. I don't have to mess with booking apps. I don't have to do any of that. Granted, there's a technology be associated on a monthly basis, but I don't have to like design any of it. I don't have to talk to any of the developers. And my clients love our booking app. So it's just all this stuff that is really taken care of. And the one thing I have to mention, because it's the most important piece of this turnkey solution, 100 % complete package relative to the services we offer, the service menu, the descriptions of our services. the grooming packages, the standard operating procedures, the training portal, the training playbooks, the products we use, 100 % designed for me, changed for me, updated for me, added for me. I don't have to mess with any of that. I love it. Yes. Yeah. I mean, that's just, I mean, that's just a lot of stuff and you can focus on your business, like making sure you have the best people and making sure your guests or having the best experience and your members are happy. And that's the beauty of a great franchise is that they take all that other stuff that's a distraction off of your plate and let you build your business. 100%. Yeah, very cool. So what are you looking for in a Hammer & Nails franchise owner? Obviously, you found this through a coach that was giving you a few options. You looked at a few different industry categories. I know there's not one specific avatar that's going to always win in this business, but who do you think makes a good Hammer & Nails franchise out of it? Yeah, that's a great question. And I've got quite the mix in the three franchisees that I have underneath me right now. I really like folks that have owned other franchises. It definitely makes it easy to translate what is an FDD. you know, things that are just really commonplace in your, in our world were very foreign to me. I didn't even know what co-tenancy meant, you know, so folks that really have done maybe a retail business in the past, I think are great candidates. Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on how you look at it, our brand is pretty pricey to get into. It's about, you know, eight, $900,000 investment. to open doors all in to get us going. And that means you need somebody who's probably got a net worth north of two million bucks, has maybe a quarter million, half a million dollar liquid, can kind of have some reserves if needed. So those are kind of some general kind of check boxes. I love people obviously who are passionate about men's grooming. I was the mom of three boys and I'm the mom of three boys. I'm a giver. I'm a pleaser. I really can resonate with men in their mid whatever 40s, 50s. And so being able to really rally around the brand I think is really important. Take personal pride in the work. of your staff and your own work. And really have some time on their hands. I think you can get to an absentee model if you want, but you have to kind of know that for six to nine months of your life, you're gonna be about launching, birthing this baby, so to speak. Yeah, that's really good advice. I think if you're gonna be semi-absentee, live in the business for a while first. understand every facet. So if a key team member leaves, which happens, you can jump in and find someone that's a good fit for that particular seat on the bus. So let's talk a little bit about the staffing model. You mentioned that you have 70 employees across all three of your locations. For a new owner, what does the staffing model generally look like? Sure. When I opened Leesburg, we opened with five barbers. five mail techs, a shop manager, and a desk representative, and myself. Only three of those positions were full-time. I wrote the offer letters in such a way that we could ramp as we needed to, as the client demand took, as we added members, we could ramp. And so I didn't guarantee full-time work. outside of three individuals. think kind of a right now, Leesburg has a thousand members. It'll come in probably one point eight, one point eight five in revenue million this year. And that shop, you know, operates with about on a full time basis, three full time nail techs, seven full time barbers. And then a desk staff of three as well. And we even have a nightly like spa back person who comes in and makes sure our laundry's done, everything's clean. So I think that's kind of a range from birth to having a pretty full shop running on what that staffing model might look like. Yeah, that's really helpful. Appreciate you sharing that. So you talked a little bit about item seven in terms of around 900,000. Obviously, there's a range there depending on the footprint, depending on any change orders you run into while you're building this thing out. But in terms of the item 19, are there any financial performance representations you can share with us? So the item 19 is the revenue side, correct? Yeah. that's either, I don't know exactly if the parent company publishes earnings, but usually it's at least top line. Yes, yes. I'm happy to really be transparent. And I always am with folks that are interested in the brand. Although legally I'm not allowed to show my financials, I can certainly provide enough insight so folks can really understand what they're getting into. You're talking about all three of my shops opened with a first 12 months of business hitting between 850 and 950 in revenue. 850K and 950K in revenue their first 12 months in operation. That's really strong out of the gate to do almost a million dollars in sales with a startup business. Absolutely. And I'll tell you, Mike, you know, if it's one thing I learned in MBA school that I didn't learn, as an electrical engineer at Ohio State is you absolutely positively have to have some balls when it comes to marketing expense. And so I am very, very, very bullish on the monthly contribution, the monthly dollars that I put towards marketing. Each shop operates even still today between five and $7,000 a month in marketing. The only time I've cut that down is if I'm capacity constrained. You know, I love it. mean, that's really aggressive marketing, but that's how you keep your book of business full. I mean, you don't get to a thousand members by just hoping that people know about you and they show up. There's too much competition out there. Yes, you guys have a differentiated offering, but you got to let the people know where you are and what you're doing. 100%. So to get back to the item 19, I think an owner operator can expect to that their first year, their profits would be after all expenses minus debt service. I'm not including debt servicing in this are probably in the single digits, three, four, 5% profit that first year, but at least it's in the black. You know, so I feel I feel really good about that with $50,000 in a bank account. I never ran out of money. I never had to add more money after we opened the doors. That's awesome. So, know, yeah, it's it's it's a nice from that perspective. I feel like the brand does really well. You get to know long until it really gets to capacity. I you're four years in a Leesburg. Like, when did you start approaching those really strong membership numbers? Yeah, so it's very dependent on the number of barber chairs you have and the number of barbers you have. And in fact, in Leesburg, I blew out a bathroom. The law changed where I didn't need two ADA compliant bathrooms. I only needed one. So I blew out a bathroom, made it a really small bathroom and added an eighth barber chair, which in my fourth year, my year over year revenue was up. 14 % because of that chair. So you don't want to go in with less than 10. They designed me at seven and that was not enough. And I went to eight, it was all I could fit. And I think now we're starting to build them with nine and 10 as it should be. As it be. But to finish your earlier question, you're certainly welcome to take... take me away from the question, but I do want to make sure that folks understand that first year you're in the single digits, this in profitability. The second year, you're probably hitting the low teens, 11, 12, 13. You know, if you're really an efficient operator, sending people home early, asking them to come in late, if you don't have the books filled, you know, if you're really on top of your schedule, maybe you hit 15, 16. And then your third year, you're in the low, very low 20s, meet 19, 20, 21 in terms of take-home profitability. And if you can really get it together, be on top of your expenses, you know, really managing every expense, managing the schedule, driving the revenue regularly, optimizing the bookings, there's certainly an art to that. If you can make that happen, you're probably hitting the mid to high 20s in terms of profitability in years three and four. Yeah, that's amazing that you can get there. mean with that kind of volume if you're able to do a million eight and bring 20 plus percent to the bottom, you can see how the numbers get really attractive as that membership grows and the store becomes a little bit more mature. So really appreciate you sharing that with us and We've covered a lot of ground here and I really appreciate your time Ilona. Anything else you want to add before we wrap up today? I don't think so. I would just say if you're out there shopping for a brand that is emerging, a brand that if you consider one shop or multiple shops is going to come at you in five years with a five times EBITDA kind of selling price, then we're a great concept for that. One of the things I didn't think about when I first joined the brand was selling. And now I've learned that in the franchise space, because things are so standardized, this is not your corner barber shop that somebody's gonna come take off your hands for 50 grand. no, this is... private equity comes in and they say, hey, we're buying out all of Virginia or we're buying out all of DC Metro or we're buying the whole Northeast. And that's when really, you know, that's when my eyes started to kind of light up and it was after I signed a franchise agreement. So I think it's kind of nice to know that there's a nice little pot at the end of the rainbow that wouldn't exist if you weren't. part of a brand. Yeah, that's a really good point you bring up. A lot of owners don't necessarily think about the exit when they're contemplating which business to enter, but it's a really important piece. I'm pretty active in the resale community, so I deal with a lot of owners that are retiring or for whatever reason they're exiting and being part of a great brand that's got a lot of momentum. You can trade at a high multiple, which is a nice, you know, It's just a nice benefit to have when you're kind of putting all this hard work to build up your business. So if anyone listening would like to connect with Ilona to learn more about becoming a Hammer & Nails franchise owner, contact me at FranchiseQB.com or on X @QBFranchiseQB. We'll get you guys connected. Thank you, Ilona, so much for taking the time to get in the huddle with us today and discuss Hammer & Nails. My pleasure. Thanks for having me. All right. Thank you for listening to the Franchise QB podcast where you're at the helm of your future as a franchise owner. If you enjoyed the content, please rate the show and recommend it to anyone that might be interested in franchising. 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