Franchise QB

Episode 70: Eric OConnor- VP of Franchise Development, PickleRage

• Mike Halpern • Season 1 • Episode 70

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In this episode of the Franchise QB Podcast, host Mike Halpern speaks with Eric OConnor, VP of Franchise Development at PickleRage. They discuss Eric's extensive background in franchising, the unique business model of PickleRage, and the explosive growth of pickleball as a sport. 

Eric shares insights on the operational aspects of running a franchise, including revenue streams, site selection, and the importance of community engagement. He also offers valuable advice for aspiring franchise owners looking to enter the industry.

Takeaways

-PickleRage is a membership-based indoor pickleball facility
-The pickleball industry has seen explosive growth in recent years
-Understanding the demographics of a location is crucial for success
-Franchise owners should focus on community engagement and marketing
-A typical pickleball player visits the facility at least twice a week
-The business model includes various revenue streams such as memberships and events
-Site selection is critical and should be backed by thorough market analysis
-Franchise owners need to follow the established systems for success
-Patience and active involvement in the business are key to thriving in franchising

https://pickleragefranchise.com/

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Contact me and my team with any questions along the way. www.calendly.com/franchiseguy
Mike Halpern, CAFC
mike@franchiseqb.com

This is the Franchise QB Podcast, where we empower entrepreneurs to win big in franchising. We huddle up weekly to educate our audience about the most successful small business model ever created. Franchising! Welcome to the Franchise QB podcast. I'm your host, Mike Halpern, a 20 year industry veteran and entrepreneur. My mission is for listeners to achieve their American dreams of creating wealth and independence through franchise ownership. Every week we speak with franchisees, franchisors or vendors that support the industry. Thank you for joining us and let's get started. Joining us in the huddle today is Eric OConnor, VP of Franchise Development with PickleRage. Welcome to the show, Eric. Mike, thanks for having me. Absolutely. Great to have you here. So a little background on you, Eric. You have 25 years of franchising experience with household-name brands like Huntington Learning Center, Edible Arrangements, and World Gym. You also started a restaurant concept that you grew to multiple locations. worked alongside a partner to establish a 14 unit gas and convenience store chain. have a tremendous amount of respect for people in the food and beverage space and how tough that is. So tell us a little bit about your journey into franchising and how it eventually led you to Pickle Ridge. Sure. No, and back in the mid 90s, I started a bagel and coffee concept in Connecticut with a great guy named Dave Greenholz, who's still in the the QSR business up in Boston. Then we started a brand. We expanded it from Connecticut to Michigan also originally from Michigan and we grew it to multi units across two states, had a central commissary that supplied our sites in Michigan and grew it to a substantial wholesale business. I was fortunate enough to sell that business in the late 90s and got a call. I remember putting it together, putting together my resume and I remember talking to my ex-wife and saying, know, What should I put down? was cream cheese spreader, bathroom cleaner, founder. out of blue, I got a call from a guy named Bernie, and he was with Cendant Corporation. And at the time, Send It was one of the leading franchisors in the country. had nine hotel chains, Century 21, Coldwell Banker, ERA. And I joined the brand with the original idea to be with Jackson Hewitt. And when I interviewed and... and they said, we want you on the hotel side. So I started and I worked with Super 8 was my original brand that I had and grew it to Wingate and Amerihost and did that for four years. Went on to work for a brand called, that had Hot Stuff Pizza, based out of Sioux Falls. And then that's when I got a call from a buddy of mine who was out of New York City with a private equity firm. wanted to As he told me, I want to have a retail business that's focused on real estate and we want you to come help us start this brand. What it was, it was a private equity firm out of New York City that wanted to acquire gas stations and maybe put food in them. This was back in early 2000s. My immediate response was absolutely not. Over the course of time, we worked into a partnership and we grew to a 14 unit. gas station and convenience store chain through acquisitions. And then when I sold that, had the opportunity to go back into franchising and loved it. Started with Huntington Learning, worked with Edible Arrangements, worked for a few other brands. And then in 2016, I got a call from a family in Holland, Michigan that wanted to start a car wash franchise. And they were a retailer. they were a car wash manufacturer and then they want to start a franchise. So when they first told me about the concept, I kind of laughed because in my convenience stores, I had car washes, didn't like them. And I thought they were a waste of money. And as I spent time with the family, they had tremendous integrity, had tremendous experience, boutique, manufacture of car wash, no more than retail in the country. And then they had tremendous integrity. And so I knew that I could help grow that brand. It was called Tommy's Express Car Wash, didn't exist in 2016. sold over 580 units and now there's 240 open around the country and they're still growing. that because of my success with that brand, I got calls from a lot of franchises who wanted their upstarts that wanted to begin to grow and very similar model, the recurring revenue model. And so when I got a call from the guys at PickleRage, I felt it was a very similar investment. know, exploding industry, recurring revenue model, low capital expenditures. So I felt it was a great fit for what I did. And, you know, my background, I love entrepreneurship. It's changed my life. I still own a few small companies with buddies and I know how it changes other people's lives. So whenever I can present a solid brand with great foundation, I like it. Yeah, that's awesome. I appreciate the backstory. You mentioned Cendant. It's kind of a blast from the past. When I was in my early 20s and got into franchising 24 years ago, there was a guy named Dick Eagan that worked for Cendant on the Century 21 side. And he ended up leaving there to be the president of the company that I worked for that was a franchise sales organization. So my first foray into franchising was under his leadership. And he was a great guy, a great leader. So tell us a little bit about, like what is PickleRage? You know, obviously it's a pickleball concept, but for listeners that aren't familiar with the brand name itself, tell us a little bit about PickleRage. Yeah, PickleRage is a club setting membership model indoor pickleball facility. You know, the number one complaint of pickleball players is that there's not enough court space for them to play. The number two complaint is once they find it, there's long waits. If you're not familiar with what's happening in the industry, in 2020, there were 9 million pickleball players that people reported playing pickleball in the United States. In 2024, 36 million people reported playing pickleball. So the sport has increased. That's incredible growth. By four times the participation in the last four years, including there's professional pickleball teams now, investors like. Tom Brady, LeBron James, and Kevin Durant, and Justin Verlander and his wife Kate Upton, all invested in professional pickleball teams. So you're seeing this explosive growth in the industry, and most people don't even realize it's growing. And so there's a big need for a formal setting for people to play in. If you think about the precursor, we were kids, Mike, we used to basketball outdoors, right? We'd play on the old asphalt. courts over the church and then as we got older, we got to go inside and play and you know, nice courts, temperate conditions. That's how the pickleball industry is now. It's in its infancy. People are learning the game outside at recreational centers. Now they're moving indoors for more consistent experience and what we offer is a great guest house, it's a pickle range. I didn't realize that there is this, I mean, I know there was a lot of demand, but when you talk about that kind of demand and the growth, like there's just a lack of supply because there's just not enough places for people to play. Yeah, people get more sophisticated. what happens with the pickleball player, they're very communal. They like to play with their friends, but as their skill levels rise, they want to be challenged. So with the pickleball, the PickleRage setting, we offer open play courts, challenge courts, clinics and leagues and tournaments, all the things that. as their skill levels rise, they want to be challenged. And they want to create that stickiness. Why would I join, or why would I join your facility if I can just play outdoors? So now this gives you the opportunity to be challenged, to play consistently with your friends, play people with same skill level. Nothing, it's funny, I'm an average pickleball player. And nothing sucks more than going to a court and getting smoked the first time. And I'm a guy, I'm an athlete. I'm 60, but I'm still out there swinging. And I'll walk up to a court ball, I'll crush that person. And then I'll just get embarrassed. so you want to make sure you match people to the right skill levels and give them the right programming. And that's what we do. 100%. Yeah, no, I came up as a tennis player. And I do like pickleball quite a bit. But I go to my tennis club twice a week, play with the same group of guys. We have a rating system. And it's the same kind of analogy there. Like if you play with people that are your ability, It's super competitive and it's a lot of fun. And if you end up playing people that are way better than you or way worse, it's just not fun. Exactly. Yeah. So tell me like in a typical location, how many courts do you guys have in a PickleRage? Yeah. Typical facilities can be 25,000 to 35,000 square feet. You're going to have between 9 and 12 courts. What we do at pickle range, know, the, the, the strength of our company, there's quite a few reasons why we're good at what we do. But the first thing we do is our parent company is called first national reality partners, FNRP. And they're one of the leading private equity sponsors of commercial real estate in US. They're a real estate arm. And we leverage their experience to do the demographic search and the competitive market analysis in every area. And so when we look at where these facilities go, we want to make sure that the trade area has a certain level of population and a certain amount of tennis and the pickleball players that are registered in that market. So when you look at 100,000 people in the trade area, you'll have 10 to 12 quarts. In areas that you're more densely populated, you might go up to 16 quarts. But in most cases, you're 25 to 35,000 square feet, 9 to 12 courts. OK, I appreciate that. And it's obvious that it's a B2C model, right? It's a communal concept, like you mentioned. But do you guys actually do events for companies, or is it just B2C? Yeah, one of the big revenue centers is a bench space for parties. So when you look at your employees that you hire, have two really key employees. One's a general manager, one's a program director. Your general manager, really their background is retail or hospitality. It's because pickleball is now taking over for golf when it comes to corporate parties and the place where people do business. They get together now at the pickleball court, according to the surveys. that we see. And so we have, all of our facilities have event space where people will have meeting spots. In West Bloomfield, was funny, like our first, West Bloomfield, Michigan is one of our first locations open. And very early, we were getting calls from companies that wanted to reserve the whole facility and do corporate events, parties. And so it's a big part of what we do. And having that hospitality GM or that retail GM who understands that's a revenue center. is a big part of what we do when it comes to those facilities and banking those in because if you ever go to a facility, you'll see there's a lot of in between matches, people are talking and they like to hang out and that's why having that space is critical. So we build in event space for every location. Yeah, it's kind of interesting you mentioned that one of the things I do with my time now when I travel is go to meet with franchise or is and really get to. know their leadership team and look at their training facilities. I'm really good to know the brands better so I can in turn come back and kind of educate my clients about what I like about them. In the last two events I went to, one was at a pickleball facility. That's kind of where we socialized and got to spend time with the leadership team and the development team. And the other one was at a top golf doing golf. So I can see how those things are becoming a lot more popular for kind of team building and things like that. So it was a lot of fun for us because we got to, you know, get to know these people and actually have fun at the same time. So, so tell me a little bit about like the stickiness of the brand for your, your B2C consumers. Like you talked about that community or people coming once a week, are they coming every other week? Like what's the frequency with which the, you know, end user kind of comes around to the facility? Yeah, typical pickleball player plays a minimum of twice a week. And so when we, when we bake in the model, we, you know, we have, it's membership driven. And what you want to do is have about about 100 members per court. And so we look at court utilization and we factor in, know, a player plays twice a week. We'll find that every area of the country has a little different persona. And so in West Bloomfield, Michigan, we have members that bring friends. And then in Jacksonville, Florida, just intense pickleball players. In Jacksonville, the members may play more often. And it really comes down to the... the maturity of Pickleball in your market. To be honest with you Mike, I'm fascinated by the whole conversation because when you look at the nuance of every location, when you do your demographic search, when you look at what's happening in the market, that's what determines how well these facilities do. But on average, they play twice a week, but I go up to our different locations for tours and discovery days and every Friday we have people in our facilities and there's probably half of them are in every Friday. But when I talked to them, when I talked to, was a great anecdotal story. I had some franchise prospects in West Bloomfield and they said, you might have we talked to a couple members. And I said, no, I don't mind. I know these two. I introduced them to one of them and then his buddy just started talking. just a random question, how much money did you spend in here? They said, well, I've got a membership. My wife has a membership. My wife is part of a part of the league, I take two lessons a week, I spend about $600 a month. And we all just kind of looked at him like, wow, that's a lot of money. But that's what you're seeing in the industry, as people join the sport, they want to get better. And as once they get to a three, they want to get to a three, five level. Once they get to a three, five, they want to get to a four. And it's really funny is that this sport is because it's in its infancy, you see more frequency of play. And that's why the club setting Great technology is critical because then you have to manage the expectation of the member because they're used to playing outside and waiting for very long time in between matches. Now we want to get in there and really get them to play more frequently but at a shorter time span. So it's a very interesting model in how you program it, the technology you use really creates that great experience for them. because in other types of outdoor facilities, you just go and wait around for the next game, it could be three, four, five games later. And what we try to do when we do open play is just have eight people assigned per court. And that's why it spins faster and they have a better, more play, more, better experience. Yeah, that's cool. And like you mentioned the 600 bucks a month, and I'm sure like the way that he justifies that is not only is it himself, but it's like his family getting to participate and it's exercise. So you kind of say, all right, well, It's almost like investing in my health, you know? And so, and then there's the social aspect of it. So like you can justify that. And yeah, it sounds like a kind of you know, luxury car payment, but at the end of the day, you're getting so much value back out of it for yourself and your family. Yeah. And then of course it's anecdotal and it's not normal. I mean, he was, he's somebody who spends more. But what's interesting is I had another prospect in a couple, a couple months ago and he's a, he's a toy manufacturer and he manages. pennies millions of times. He's got a high volume toy manufacturer. And he's a pretty intense guy. And I remember him looking at me after he settled down and going, everyone's smiling here. Everyone's having a good time. And I went, yeah, that's recreational sports, man. That's the business model. And so I think when it becomes your country club, when it becomes your place to go, you don't mind spending money to be there and then you enjoy it. It's like going to your favorite restaurant. You just don't mind spending the money because you know the waiter, know the people around you. It's a great experience. Yeah, that's a good point. As an owner, you get lot of gratification out of it because the people that are showing up there, it's not like they're getting their teeth pulled. They're going there to have a great time with their friends and it's like the best part of their week. So that's pretty cool. So was the West Bloomfield store the flagship? also kind of second part of that question is when did you guys kind of convert it from an independent business model to a franchise system? Well, it's always been their model. They built corporate sites first. So the goal was they decided to get in the industry. They contacted me back about a year ago. I was working with other brands, World Gym, wrapping up some responsibilities there. And I came to the brand in July. And that's when they were opening up their first corporate location. So it was their goal to get proof of concept first. And they had a few corporate sites under development when I joined the brand. And then really was to get serious about selling franchises once we had proof concept to show people. So they opened up their first location July at 2024. And it's been great. It was funny because I would say that's the flagship. But we have sites in Glen Burnie, Maryland, in Jacksonville, Florida. And they each have their own special nuance of why they are the flagship. And it's really interesting. Like I said, every mile is a little different. But I think that the The brand itself is that when you go to different locations, you really see the true nature of the population of the pickleball players, very passionate people. And in Michigan it's great because you see the seasonality of intense winners, people are out. But then you would think that the business is seasonal, not because in Jacksonville you can play your round outdoors, they're indoors playing because it's a better experience. So yeah, I think that the corporate site in West Bloomfield was the original intention. I think it's slowly moving down to Jacksonville because it shows people a little more, seasonality in the business and people wrap their head around it little bit better. That's cool. So what are the revenue streams in the model? I know there's a membership model, so people, know, just like that anecdote you gave me before. What about drop-ins? Like, I'm sure that that's an option as well. Is there like a 50-50 split or is there some other kind of general breakdown of revenue for an owner? Yeah, as you grow your facility and your facility you know, the matures, you want to move to about 100 members per court. And how I explain to people is when you get around 80 members per court, you got to kind of monitor play because you to build value into the membership. And there's also value in having non-members play your facility. So at Pickle Range, we offer two tiers of membership. There's more, I mean, there's more, but I always talk about the unlimited package or the elite and then the a la carte where you get discounts on court fees. So we have a top package where a member will pay one fee, open play, court reservations all included in that one fee. It ranges on the part of the country you're in from say $90 to $159 a month. And then there's the a la carte membership where they will get a discount on court fees and open play and then least tournaments and clinics. So the top line revenue membership is, and then the court fees for members and nonmembers. if you have the all the current membership. And that usually accounts for about 65 % of your revenue. it's leagues and tournaments, and then camps, clinics, and training. And it's personal, a small group. So one of the things we're very successful at, and we recognize that our learning locations is, is if you just have pickleball training, it's not as popular. But if you do break it into like serving, technique, footwork, and people can kind of graduate up to step by step and learn the game better. there's more stickiness to the membership. So when you have small group and specialized clinics, it's more, there's more substance to those. And then we have events based for parties and then we have a pro shop and then we have a small food and beverage offering, grab and go drinks and snacks. Okay. So the food and beverage isn't a full kitchen that you have to staff and operate and cook hot food. It's more grab and go stuff that can be. You got to keep it simple because when you How I explain it people is finding 30,000 square feet is tough enough. If you're gonna segment one court, if you had a restaurant in your facility, you're essentially taking one court out. And I just tell people this, say you have 10 courts, and if you were to have lunch, that means you have 40 people playing in your facility at any given time, and they play for lunchtime, two hours. Let's say half of them ate lunch. How much money can you make serving lunch to 20 people in a day? And then I totally get it. I I look at it just like our tennis club, we have 12 courts and there's no food offering and there's no need for it. Honestly, mean, So you can't go there. They to and go afterwards. Like we play on Tuesday nights and we play from six to seven thirty. Then we go out to the pub next door and we get dinner. And that's where we kind of talk about our game. You could do my pitch, Mike. That's what I tell people. So tell us. A little bit about the labor model. You mentioned that the two key roles, aside from the owner, are going to be the GM and the program manager. Who else is in the shop as a W-2 for the franchise owner? Yeah, you have a series of part-time front desk associates. One of those are going to be probably like a shift leader or an assistant general manager. But really the two key roles are your general manager, which is hospitality, retail driven, then your program director, who's more skill set. So their role, they kind of manage the Pickleball Pros. Pickleball Pros are 1099 contractors. They come in, they do the clinics, the camps, the training. And so the role kind of split is they manage the, the program director manages the Pickleball Pros. The GM kind of manages the front desk associates and the guest experience. That's how I kind of break it up for people to kind of simplify. And you usually have, you're have you know, two people on staff at all time. Just because you want to make sure, because it's a safety issue, you always want to have somebody at the front desk to greet people. And then somebody to kind of orchestrate, you know, the club setting. And what I mean by that is, you know, when your facility's full, you want to make sure people are playing and they're on the right courts. Because if you ever been, you you kind of come in, you put your rackets in the holder and kind of you're next up and you might have four or five rackets in this one and zero over here, you want to direct. over managed courts. And so you want to just make sure that the guests are having a great experience and you're communicating with them. The other person's kind of managing the front desk. That could be a general manager, you know, doing the, you know, walking around the facility and not always helping for safety issues. But it's low labor, so you have one or two staff members there at all times. Yeah, so to your point about it being low labor, that just puts more emphasis on the importance of getting a great piece of real estate, making sure that the franchise owner is properly capitalized and you just have a really buttoned up process for site selection. Can you speak to that a little bit? mean, it sounds like you guys are owned by real estate experts, but how do you help the franchise owner find that great site? Yeah, so on our calls, our process is we do an initial call with people and then we invite them to a webinar. Once on that initial call, we find out where they would like to locate. And so I have a... dedicated real estate team. And the role of the real estate team really is to help us identify the right markets, it what we look for is underserved markets. So we look at that trade area. We look at that 15 minute drive time. So FNRP, First National Realty Partners, is a parent company. We have dedicated team, guys from the real estate experience on my team. Chris Dice is the vice president of real estate construction. And what we do, first thing we do is we do a competitive market analysis. We look at the population, the demographics, active senior population, demographic income, middle income and above, white collar workers, business professionals, and that's a persona of your pickleball player, in the most part. And then we look at who's in the market, what real estate's available. And then we try to find, so we map, we have a warm up with every location, ours, competitors, outdoor facilities, land, pending, you know, when it comes to leases. And we put this warm up together. And then when you come to me, say I want to be in Tupelo, Mississippi, we tell you if it's a good market or not. And then we will tell you, you know, where you should be in that market. Because there's convenience, there's accessibility. And then when you factor all those in, and then it comes down to 20 foot ceiling height and 30 foot column with. And so there's quite a few factors that are going to determine whether or not there's available real estate in your market. Yeah, go ahead. And so that's how we start as part of it. So we come to our webinar, and then our next call we talk about your market is in a viable market. If it's not a viable market, we'll tell you. We don't want to sell you franchise unless it makes sense. so, Mike, you've been in the industry a long time. Selling franchise is relatively easy. Opening franchises is tougher and building a brand is very tough. And that's why our approach is to make sure that we're giving them all the information up front. This is a great market, it's underserved, they'll build real estate, and here's how we service our community. That's an important part of what we do, of our expertise, because the pickleball industry is wild west right now. A lot of people are jumping into it. And without that professional real estate background, it could be tough for people who are out there just kind of abusing third parties. to help them grow their brand because I think that's what really differentiates us from our competitors is the amount of detail our team requires of ourselves to make sure our franchise community has the right opportunities to market. Yeah, no, I mean, it goes back to the fundamentals back when I was in my restaurant days. You get a great site, a great brand, great operator, look out, good things are gonna happen. You miss one or two of those components, you're in trouble. So you mentioned like... All right, let's say the guy comes to you for Tupelo, but it turns out that's not a great site, but in Jackson there's a great site. So can the owner be somewhat distant if they have a good GM that's going to be in there day to day running the business? Yeah, think that's, know, when I tell people all the time, this is a business setup for entrepreneurs and professionals, business professionals. It's it's a, without, it's a simple business model. If you, if you are able to manage a team. And so. we're an entrepreneurial operating system company, EOS company, and it really starts with a couple basic fundamentals. Write people in the right places and know your numbers. And so as part of our training, we train you how important it is, write general manager, and then how to keep them accountable. Because accountability is one of the things that we train you on how to manage your team, which seems, it seems. I mean, be honest with you, I'm 60 years old and it's the first EOS based company I've worked with and it has changed my work habits and I'm pretty structured to begin with. So we have three corporate sites in Michigan, Glen Burnie, Maryland and Florida. We have great general managers and our COO is David Smith and he's very structured how he oversees these facilities. And that's what we give to our franchise community. is that ability to manage your team remotely. Of course, we want active, you can be passively active and manage your team, or you can be in your facility all the time, but this brand is set up for entrepreneurs that want to manage a team of great professionals. And what I tell people at the end of the day, it's a sales marketing company. And so you gotta make sure your fundamental staff is in place, then it really is, you're selling memberships, it's marketing, getting out in the community. know, shaking hands and kissing babies in every community and being part of a local business. And owners who understand that, the innovation, the marketing side of the business are more successful, you know, in our model. Yeah. I mean, my next question was going to be, who's your ideal candidate? But you just kind of talked about that. So they're capitalized or entrepreneurial. They're, you know, the mayor of the town. they have a social presence in the community so they can drive. sales and memberships and keep the right people in the right seats. Anything else? I always tell people, you know, like, I do, I do a very last slide of my presentation, I do the webinar, as I talk about who we're looking for. And we're looking for people that understand the importance of sales, innovation and marketing, because business models change always. And there's always new technology, but, you know, build it and they'll come. The demand's there, of course, but you have to be active in your community. You have to be out there and shaking hands and kissing babies and knowing your guest's name. And if it's not you, it's gotta be your general manager. And that's what I believe that we do very well at our corporate locations. I am blown away at the passion our members have for our staff. as you see, I'm a big guy, white beard, white eyes. I walk around with this on, I'm in the facilities. People know that I'm part of the executive team and I get compliments the whole time when I'm in our corporate facilities. about how well the staff takes care of our guests. And I think that's important part for people to realize. You're in the retail business. The guest experience is critical. It's why Chick-fil-A, it's why Apple, is more successful than their competitors, because they understand the importance of a guest experience. And that's what we do at Pickle Range. We really make sure that we take care of our guests when they're in the facility, and we understand what makes them tick and why they come to our facilities. Yeah, that's a really good point. So let's talk a little bit about item seven if someone's like looking at this and they want to be a pickle-rage owner I know you're gonna have a massive gap because of the footprint. I mean you're talking about an enormous amount of space So what's what's that item seven look like in terms of the investment? Yeah, the range of investment for a twenty to fifty thousand square foot location is between seven hundred eighty seven thousand and one point seven million What we do is we include all possible costs we include initial franchise fee three months rent three months operating capital and then the grand opening marketing expenditures of 20 to $50,000. If I go backwards, and this is why I always explain to people, it's a pretty simple construction process. Think of a 30,000 square foot box. And so when you look at the initial franchise fee, three months rent, three months operating capital, and grand opening expenditures, that's about $220k, $240,000. When you look at say 10 courts, that's another $100,000. When you look at FF&E, millwork cabinets, fencing, environmental banners, which is signage. That's about another $120k. So that's about $460,000. Everything else in that formula is leasehold improvements. And that's why when we help you negotiate the terms of your lease and get the tenant improvement allowance money that helps bring your costs down, it's important. That's why there's a big range in the item seven, because the big fluctuating number there is leasehold improvements. So if you get great you know because most our locations are second-generation old that best and beyond old toys are us you have to get you have to kind of tear them apart to put back together landlords contribute that tenant allowance to that to that number and that helps bring your costs down big factor in the range of investment yeah know the big portions of these whole improvements yeah and I know the the timeframe to get open is gonna also vary because like you said, sometimes you have to get the place and then you have to start over and I'm sure you could find a gray box where you're the first tenant. What's the guidance we're giving owners for timeframe from when they sign their franchise agreement to when they get their first facility operation? Yeah, 12 to 15 months. We have a franchise partner mobile that is gonna be open about seven. Depending on how much work we do prior to you your franchise agreement on location, it could be nine months. When you go backwards from opening to beginning construction, it's 90 days. It's a pretty simple process. Once it's a vanilla box finish, it's 90 days finish. So it's everything prior, site identification, lease negotiation, permitting, and then demolition. But the actual process itself to build out a facility, less than 90 days. And in terms of territories that in item 12 that we give to the owners, I guess that just depends on density and how know, far of a radius, people are willing to commute to get the facility. How big is the territory once someone's kind of operational? Yeah, we always start with a search area for every franchise partner to kind of look for their area. And because because it's early in the process, we begin with larger search area to look for location. Once they find the location, it comes down to population density. We're that 100 to 150,000 people per per trade area, which is usually a 15 to 20 minute drive time. Every market is different. If you're in Dallas, Populations dance if you're in, you know, in some Midwest counties It's a little bigger, but it really depends on a lot of factors Mike whether it's you know rivers and like right now I'm doing a territory in Florence, Kentucky And I can't do a population radius because we need up Cincinnati We know that the board the river cuts the in ass from answer you kind of to look at you know Every every location is a little different. But what we do like most what we're very sensitive to is putting our locations close enough for synergy, far enough apart that we don't catalyze each other, and making sure that we don't leave open opportunities for our competitors. And so we really spend a lot of time with the owner talking about his area, what his long-term goals are, and how to kind of build the model out and where the location should be using the demographic. Just because you're a big populated city doesn't mean every area is a pickable opportunity. If you were in Detroit, you've got an opportunity for maybe five or six locations throughout from Ann Arbor to, you know, to St. Clair Shores. But you have population of over a million people. So every area is a little different, but we just sit down and spread out a map, work it out with the owners, franchise partners. That's the beauty of being part of emerging brand too. You have a lot of say early on on territories. Yep. So Eric, what advice can you give to aspiring entrepreneurs that are like, kind of like, wow, this pickleball thing seems pretty interesting. I might want to be a part of it. Yeah, it's interesting. I go back to my days at Huntington and I remember, I remember we would do lunch with Ray Huntington and wrap up with Eileen Huntington. And both would ask the same question. What does it take to be successful? And with Eileen it was great because she would say, follow our system. We've been doing this for 35 years. Now it's been over 50 years I've been doing Huntington. And I think that when you join a franchise system buy in, the biggest ironic dynamic for most high-net-worth investors is they're very entrepreneurial. And the ability to not want to do it on your own is that thing that kind of pushes, it's push-pull with everybody. Why can't I do this on my own? It's because you have a team of people behind you who are all experts. My background, 20 plus years of franchising business development. Mike Law, the Senior Vice President of Marketing. David Smith, our COO, has been in franchising for 25 years. Follow our system. We have nothing but your best interest in place. when it comes to, and then kind of like, listen to professionals and put your personal ego aside when it comes to where you want to locate your business. Because a lot of times people want to go to Taj Mahal in the backyard and they don't realize that convenience and accessibility are one of the greatest factors of success for any business. If you're not patient, you don't want to follow the system, this may not be the model for you and that could be any franchise. For me, it's patience, follow the system, and be properly capitalized. Then just dig in and put both feet in your business because When you, when you're active in your business, you're more successful. And when you're passionate about it, you know, you get up every morning, be excited about what you do. And I always tell people like, you know, if you just do this for an investment, you know, you disinvest in the stock markets, free passive, don't, you don't, don't have to look at it. But if you're to be in the retail business, be involved. Yeah, no, that's really good advice. And I think it's a conversation that both you and I have with a lot of candidates that are trying to figure out if independent business ownership is the right path for them versus franchise ownership. And it's like, If you're trying to create everything on your own, be independent, go out there and try it, make the mistakes. But if you want it all figured out, follow the system, the franchisor is giving you this blueprint, and invest in what you see. Yes, it's going to evolve, but don't try to change it. Or it really doesn't make sense to be a franchise owner. It makes more sense to go try something on your own. You know, Mike, I've done this from both sides, where I start my own companies from scratch. I remember putting up the menu boards. As we were creating recipes on the first day I opened my first bagel shop in 1992 or whatever year that was and trying to figure out how to make cream cheese. We said, oh, it's vegetable. You put tomatoes, cucumber, and we started stirring it. It was just a big mess of slush. And we went, it's got to be drier. And I just remember laughing about it. And I remember as we got to our third location, my partner goes, I think we got this. It was our third location. And he's like, yeah, I think I got this. I'm like, yeah, think we're pretty good at this. That's funny. people account of the cost of time, right? Yeah, 100%. Yeah. And there's also a financial cost to making those mistakes. So, well, this has been great, Eric. I really appreciate all your insights and anything else you want to add to the mix today before we wrap up? No, you know, I think that, you know, if anybody's interested in PickleRange.com industry, we have a great due diligence process, very structured. We give you a lot of information in the right context. Go to PickleRange.com for more information. He always reached out to me on LinkedIn. But know, Mike, I really appreciate you having me on today and love talking about the industry. Absolutely. And I'll post your website on this episode. And if anyone listening would like to connect with Eric to learn more about becoming a PickleRage franchise owner, contact me at FranchiseQB.com or on X @QBFranchiseQB. I'll get you connected with Eric. Eric, thank you so much for taking the time to get in the huddle and discuss PickleRage with us today. Mike. Have a great day. You got it. Thank you for listening to the Franchise QB podcast where you're at the helm of your future as a franchise owner. If you enjoyed the content, please rate the show and recommend it to anyone that might be interested in franchising. Make sure to visit FranchiseQB.com to subscribe to my newsletter and for an actionable playbook to go from walk-on to legend in your new business. Follow us on Twitter at QB franchise QB and join us every week for a new episode. See you next time. franchiseqb.com. take the next step of your journey towards wealth, independence, and franchise ownership. And remember, when working for the man gets old, you must do something bold. Thank you for listening.